Monday, 6 December 2010

The death of David Kelly - Meeting at the IISS with Andrew Gilligan

I'm posting this primarily as a brief note about the possible meeting(s) of David Kelly with Andrew Gilligan in 2002.

In his oral evidence to the Hutton Inquiry Andrew Gilligan stated that he hadn't met David Kelly at an IISS meeting in September 2002. See evidence for the morning of Wednesday 17th September 2003 at Pages 1 and 2:

13 The first matter is your meetings with Dr Kelly.
14 You have already given evidence of your first meeting in
15 early 2001 of which you have manuscript notes, your
16 second meeting on 11th April 2002, of which you have
17 a diary entry and some manuscript notes; and then there
18 is a matter which arose from what Dr David Kelly had
19 said, relating to a meeting which he believed had taken
20 place in September 2002 and it emerged he thought he had
21 met you at an IISS event.
22 Have you carried out any further checks since you
23 last gave evidence on that matter?
24 A. Yes. I have confirmed with the IISS that I was not in
25 fact at that event. They produced an attendance list

1 showing that Dr Kelly was there but I was not, and if
2 I had not been on the list I would not have been allowed
3 to attend. I have also confirmed that I was on holiday
4 during the time of that event.
5 Q. I think the dates of that event are thought to be 12th
6 to 14th September.
7 A. That is right; and I was, in fact, on holiday over that
8 weekend. I think we have some documentation, boat hire
9 documentation to support that.
10 Q. You are right about that. That, we believe, is on the
11 system at ANG/2/20.

Notice that the IISS meeting is said by the QC to be 12th to 14th September 2002.

However, there was an IISS/CEPS Eurosec meeting on 9th September 2002. See, for example, United States Policy Toward Iraq for the date mentioned.

And there was also an IISS meeting focussing on Iraq disarmament, 9 Jun 02 - The Continuing Threat of Iraq’s WMD Programs, on 9th - 11th June 2002.

I mention these two additional IISS meetings which included Iraq topics as possible places where David Kelly and Andrew Gilligan could have met in the relevant period in mid to late 2002.


  1. So, was there, or was there not an IISS Seminar in Sept 2002 and what dates did it occur on (if indeed it took place)? It's certainly a queer old meeting which takes place on a Saturday!

  2. Felix,

    If the list of meetings here is complete, 2002 Conferences then there wasn't an IISS conference on the dates mentioned in evidence to the Hutton Inquiry.

    However, it's possible that the list of meetings at the preceding link represents only some of the IISS events.

  3. I reckon 11-13 refers to the press release on the 9th (I wonder why the date has been massaged?) At MOD/1/0025 it only appears as September. At MOD/1/0020 Dr Kelly is more specific "I have not had extensive dealings with Andrew Gilligan As I recall I first met him at the IISS "Global Strategic Review" in September 2002 after the IISS dossier was published but before the UK Government dossier appeared"
    I think this was what Andrew MacKinlay was trying to get to the bottom of and the drafted answer (elsewhere in your blog) is clearly erroneous (why?)
    The IISS held its first Global Review one year after 9/11 in London. Very little information exists about this meeting. There is one link here by Prof Dr Margarita Mathiopoulos of Potsdam here to the 44th IISS Annual Conference", IISS Global Strategic Review, London, 13 15 September 2002 at the Chancery Court Hotel, 252 High Holborn.
    Who said Gilligan did not attend the Conference? The IISS itself did here at BBC/13/0001 to Gilligan's solicitors. So Gilligan was both boating, AND did not attend, apparently. Notice para 3 which is strangely worded, ditto para 4.

  4. Notice Professor Mathiopoulos's firm ASPIDE dealing with global defence and energy security, previously CEO BAE Systems Germany for Europe/North American markets and with John Pix Weston ex-BAE (Al Yamamah) project director as Chairman of the Intl.Advisory Board. ASPIDE is based next to the Brandenburg Gate in the same building as Der Spiegel.

  5. Fancy taking a boating holiday over such a momentous weekend in history. Dr Kelly is quite specific that they met AFTER the Press conference on the 9th but before the dossier was published on the 24th September. Of course Dr Kelly can't answer back.

  6. I think it quite remarkable that just about the only evidence on the web of this first IISS Global Strategy Review occurs in a statement by David Kelly. The second 2003 Review occurred in Leesburg Virginia,just outside Washington DC, USA, and in 2010 Henry Kissinger gave the keynote speech at the 8th Review in Geneva with "generious support from the private sector. I wonder which sector that was!
    Even on the IISS WEBSITE there is just the briefest mention that the inaugural meeting took place in London in 2002.

  7. Just for the record,(Intelligence and Security Committee, 16 July 2003) Dr Kelly comments here at ISC/1/0004:
    "According to my recollect I have met him (Andrew Gilligan) twice, once in February (2003) on a date I can't remember, and once on May 22nd. I previously met him, and it's the only time'l can recall meeting him face-to-face, was at the International Institute for Strategic Studies Global Strategic Review in early September of last year. I may possibly have met him at conferences
    before that and indeed after that, because I go to Chatham House for the International
    Institute for Strategic Studies but I've never knowingly had a direct conversation with
    "Both meetings took place in the Charing Cross Hotel, both were instigated by Andrew Gilligan."
    So, who is the liar? Dr Kelly or Gilligan?

    Gilligan seems to be the UK equivalent of Judy Miller in all this....with whom, of course, Dr Kelly received that curious email which for some reason we were allowed to see by Lord Hutton.
    As Dr Kelly says..."I will wait until the end of the week until judging..." (i.e. not I am so so tired and weary and tired and feeling suicidal)

    Just for the record too, Andrew Gilligan's shifty responses to the FAC on that fateful day, 17 July 2003 may be read here

  8. Felix,

    If Andrew Gilligan lied about his meetings with David Kelly he has the huge advantage that David Kelly is dead.

    Your comparing of Andrew Gilligan to Judith Miller is a very imteresting comparison, I think.

  9. Another one who, like Gilligan, who appears to confirm Dr Kelly as a liar, is Gavin Hewitt,friend of Tom Mangold, of the BBC. Dr Kelly says he had no recollection of speaking to him, yet Hewitt's notebook is incompletely presented to the Hutton Inquiry with redactions but also with bizarre notes allowed to appear such as PENTAGON and TM (Mangold).
    Hewitt says he had NO IDEA he was speaking to the same person as had met Gilligan(!).
    It is instructive to read the 15 July 2003 FAC exchanges here.
    Oddly indicated in Hewitt's notes is that Dr Kelly mentions Iraq using 122mm guns for delivering weapons. Apparently eleven of these new,undeclared and unusued 122mm shells were found only on 16 January 2003 by UN inspectors which duly found their way into Colin Powell's speech to congress on 5 February 2003. As far as I can tell, this is the ONLY time Dr Kelly mentioned 122mm shells anywhere.

  10. PS However, Andrew Gilligan in his Palm Pilot notes of the meeting with David Kelly (Kelly I think said only pencil and paper notes were made) alludes to talking about the missiles found on 16 Jan 2003. It must be remebered that it was Gilligan who requested the meetings for context purposes. Those missiles were important in being the first hoped for evidence (since disproved) that Iraq had WMD.
    Interesting that Gilligan's New York Kelly contact phone number is that of Christian Seelos, which number would I guess have been held too by Tom Mangold and would have been rung by Gavin Hewitt. It is quite clear in Gilligan's note that Dr Kelly had a New York number yet Hewitt says he doesn't know which of the two contact numbers he used.
    Finally, in Susan Watts' transcript, it does seem clear that Dr Kelly did speak to Gavin Hewitt...
    "DK. I mean I did talk to Gavin Hewitt yesterday-he phoned me in New York, so he may have picked up on what I said because I would have said exactly the same as I said to you." (SJW/1/0039)
    Curious there that there is an erased gap on the tape after Dr Kelly says "I mean my
    problem was I could give other explanations which I've indicated to you . that it was the time to erect something like a scud missile or it was the time to fill a 40 barrel, multi-barrel rocket launcher xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"
    All very curious.